Flaming Flag on the air 89.5 FM KOPN's Evening Edition with host Mark Haim Tuesday March 17, 1998 6-7pm M: Hello, and welcome to Evening Edition for Tuesday, March 17. Tonight we'll meet some of the members of the Flaming Flag Federation. Have you wondered what motivates local high school students to put out a radical political paper? What's on the minds of today's progressive youths? What sorts of responses are they getting? I'll be exploring these questions with Peter, Jacob, Gregg, and Abe, four Columbia high school student activists, who put out the Flaming Flag. Stay tuned to learn more. As always, your calls, questions, and comments will be welcome. It's all coming your way on Evening Edition, right after the news from National Public Radio. [NPR: News] [M: Weather] M: And now we welcome you to Evening Edition. Good evening, I'm your host Mark Haim. Here it's 6:07 on 89.5 KOPN, Smart Radio as they say around here. And one of the smart ideas that we have right now is to try to integrate some ideas of young people in our mix. One of the things I've noticed in recent months and years is that KOPN, which is a station that was started by young people back in the early seventies, most of the people who started KOPN were people in their early twenties primarily, some in their late teens, some in their late twenties, but primarily it was a young people's station. And now it's mostly people around my age. And I'm in my forties, not even my early forties anymore. So tonight I've invited into the studio guests from the Flaming Flag Federation and I have with me four members of the Flaming Flag Federation: Jacob, Gregg, Peter, and Abe. Welcome. A: Hi. J,P,G: Hello. M: Hello. Glad to have you all here, and we've got a lot to talk about. One thing I will mention at the get-go here that Jacob and Gregg and Peter are going by their first names tonight, and I guess out of maybe some concern for any possible repercussions to their last names being used. Abe is Abe Haim, and he's my son, so in the interest of full disclosure I have a connection to at least one of these people in this studio tonight. Actually, I'm connected to all four of them because they're all people I respect and enjoy the company of and working with. So, I want to just say that and I'd like to start things off by--well, I want to mention, right at the get go that we will be, throughout the hour, taking calls here on Evening Edition and our phone numbers here are 443-TALK--that's 443-8255--and U.S. Cellular customers can reach us at #677--and I just seem to be getting a little bit of feedback. I'm not sure where it's coming from but hopefully, it's not getting out there in a place where people are hearing it. But it's sounding funny to me. I don't know if I have any buttons pushed wrong . . . I'm new at this. I've been doing the show for almost six months but I've only been doing the engineering end of it for about three weeks now. I think it's actually gone away so I guess everything is good. I'd like to start things off, guys, by giving you all a chance to talk about what's important to you, why you are politically active, why you're concerned, what kinds of issues concern you personally. Who wants to start off. Abe? Yeah, go for it. A: Thanks, Dad. I've always been sort of politically aware. You know, I think it's important that people become empowered and I think that, you know, the current system of government and corporations which have over the years become more powerful is just not good and we all need to more be running our own lives and freeing ourselves from repression. M: Okay, fair enough. Peter? P: Well, I'm basically in support of justice for all people and I see social problems and political problems in the world today that all need to be solved. And so, by putting out our magazine, we're working on trying to solve these problems and create awareness of problems that are going on in the world. M: Gregg? Any . . .? G: Well, there's a lot of things that go on that scares me, that lots of people don't know, what's going on in the world around them--um, issues like censorship and homophobia really worry . . . And one of those is taking place right here at home, just recently. There's lots of issues like those that concern me, that I work on the paper to try to make people more aware of these and get involved in what's going on. M: Jacob? J: Yeah, I'm in real support of justice and there seems to be a real lack of justice in history. And a lot of people just don't know history- it's like kinda skewed. I'm in support of liberation and human rights. I see a lack of compassion for humanity a lot around me and it really bothers me. M: Answers I can't argue with at all. Anybody else feel like adding anything to what they said? A: I could add that I think that a lot of people think that they can, you know, just reform the current system of keeping the corporations and the government intact and stuff but basically, the reason why we have all these problems isn't because of just a few bad apples or just problems that are there because of negligence or something but it's because of the greed and corruption of government. They want things to be the way that they are now and all the problems that you hear about -they're all on purpose, they're not by accident that they're happening. And that's the important thing. M: So you see the problems as systemic and . . . A: Yeah. And you know, they happen for a reason. It benefits these people--get rich. That's the way that things are. M: I guess when I did my introduction and I referred to the Flaming Flag as a radical political paper, some people might respond to that word "radical" like it's a bad term, you know, like that radical is out there way off the spectrum and weird but when I use the word "radical" I guess, to me, it means get to the root of things--that's the origin of the word "radical" is getting to the root of things. And when you talk about that, Abe, it makes me think that's radical in the true sense of the word, that you don't wanna just deal with the surface issues but you wanna get to the root of things. A: Uh-huh. J: Yeah, radical was a synonym for "cool" in the '80s. (Laughter.) P: We'd like to think we're that, too, you know. M: Thanks, Peter. I guess there are four voices in here tonight and I might at some point try to identify who's speaking just because it might be hard for listeners to get a handle. But I am your Evening Edition Host Mark Haim. I am in the studio tonight with four members of the Flaming Flag--Jacob, Gregg, Peter, and Abe--and we are talking about the Flaming Flag and we are inviting your calls during the course of this hour--443-TALK or 443-8255. That would be how you'd get through and join us in conversation tonight. And it's 6:14 and I'd like to see if you can tell me a little bit about the Flaming Flag as a publication. Sort of, how did it start, how long has it been around, those kinds of questions. Gregg? G: Well, I think that this all started with the Black & Red and that was Abe's paper a few years ago at Hickman, so if he wants to talk about that . . . A: Basically I started it. You know, for awhile, when I was knowledgeable more than most people around me and stuff and I felt like I had a lot of stuff to say to people and you know, I always read political magazines and stuff and I thought that you know, the school's paper, and basically it's always been censored since after the Hazelwood Decision and so I, like, I couldn't just write . . . M: The Hazelwood Decision--what was that? A: That's when the Supreme Court ruled that the administration had a right to censor anything they wanted to out of the paper. They had some excuse or something. M: So you saw your school paper not printing ideas that you really felt . . . A: Yeah, I knew that if I tried--they wouldn't let me write a column if --with the kind of politics I have, you know, if I talked about the sports team or the cheerleaders or something, they'd give me a column but otherwise, I couldn't write a column about anarchist politics, certainly. M: So, you started the Black & Red and then . . . J: Well, Peter, Gregg and I--we started the A-Cycle. M: That's Jacob who's speaking. J: Yeah. We started that our last year at Jeff when we were freshmen. M: Jeff Junior. Here in Columbia? J: Uh-huh. A: Year before last actually. J: Yeah, and last year, our papers kind of merged and that's when the Flaming Flag was born. M: Okay, so that was early in the fall of 1996 then. J: Yeah, it was, like, October. M: And you all have been putting this out for about a year and a half. How many issues have you done? G: We just put out our sixth about a month ago. M: Okay. A: And there was two issues of both the Black & Red and three of the A Cycle before that. M: All right. And the paper you're putting out now--I know that your most recent issue was a big incremental step upward. Up until this issue you were putting it out in what format? P: Well, we'd basically go to the copy place down at the campus and just get our-- copy it on regular recycled paper and have it stapled together and this time we wanted to see it in a new format and so we did some research and found a small publishing group that would print it on newsprint and bind it like a regular magazine and so we footed the bill and printed a thousand copies and we think it looks a lot better. A: Right now I should mention, we're $150 in debt so, if you wanna donate we'd appreciate that. M: So you took a big step up from photo copying to offset printing and real magazine type format. And your press run had previously been about how many? J: Like 200. A: Well, 200-400, depending on how much money we could get together. M: Okay. And this time it was a thousand so it's increasing impact, I'm sure. P: Yeah. M: Where do people get this, if they want to pick up a copy? P: We have it available downtown at the Peace Nook, as well as at Now Hear This, Whizz, Salt of the Earth, various different music stores. We also have it available at the schools in town--at Hickman, at Rock Bridge and I believe we have people passing it out at West now. M: West Jr.? P: Yeah. M: Okay and they haven't set up racks in the school lobby for you to distribute this, I take it. P: They're not too happy about it. A: Basically at Hickman they've decided they're going to live with it, though, I guess. M: Oh! You know what? We've got a caller coming in. Hang on. Hi! You're on KOPN's Evening Edition. Can you hear me? Hang on. Hello? Can you hear me? Having a little bit of phone trouble. I'm sorry. I cannot hear you, caller. I'm not sure why but I'd like to invite you--well, hang on, if you could hold on one sec, I've got somebody coming in who might be able to help me with the technical end of this. We are trying to take a call and I thought I had all my buttons pushed but we are looking into this matter and in the meantime, are there other places people can pick up the paper? J: Aardvark's, too. M: Okay, looks like the caller got off the line. If the caller wants to try back, 443-TALK, 443-8255, we would welcome your call coming in and we're trying to play with the technical end here. One thing that regular KOPN listeners probably are aware of is that KOPN is a seriously under-funded, non-profit community radio station. And our physical plant is in need of significant repairs, so we've been running into occasional problems with our board and we are trying our best to keep things together here and we do rely on people's financial support. We have memberships and pledges. We've got a call coming in. Let's see how it works this time. C 1: Hey. M: Hi! You're on the air. C 1: Can you hear me? M: Yeah, this time you're good. C 1: All right, cool. I just wanted to say, I think you guys are awesome and they're great. It's so encouraging to see them so young and-- M: How much did you pay this guy to call in? (Laughter) C 1: I don't even know these guys. And I have so many questions. Let me just ask first off--one of the things that's so hard to do is to get reliable information. I wanna know specifically what resources these guys have, what do they use, what do they read, who, specifically, do they count on for reliable information about the goings-on. And then I wanna know also-- M: Let's take one question at a time. I'll let you stay on the line. C 1: Yeah, sure. M: Does anyone wanna offer information sources? Abe? A: I have some anarchist magazines I read, such as ? And Slingshot. And also I can listen to mainstream news like NPR and if you sorta try and listen between the lines or reading the paper, you know, if you try and not just skim the headlines and get what they're trying to make you think, then you can even get fairly good just from that. C 1: All right. M: Other sources? J: Yeah. M: Jacob? J: I get a lot of stuff from grassroots newsletters and really, lots of places. I get stuff from anywhere from, like, Time, to- M: Time's one of the grassroots newsletters? (Laughter) J: Grassroots newsletters and mainstream. I look at everything. A: Also, and then there's the Zapatista page where they have information pretty much straight from Chiapas. C 1: Yeah, that was my next question. How effective is the internet? How reliable do you guys think it is? G: Well, I think it's questionable sometimes because anyone can put up whatever they want but lots of times people have their personal background and explain where they're coming from and that's helpful a lot of times, like, usually, we feel we can trust the Zapatista home page to represent what's going on in Chiapas-- C 1: Yeah. G: --as opposed to something like the Chase Bank of Manhattan home page about Zapatistas. C 1: Yeah. I think it's great that you guys look at all different things because then you can kind of, you know, balance it out. What do you guys wanna do, in terms of careers, dreams, hopes? Each one of you. P: Well, I tend to eventually maybe put out a larger scale magazine. M: This is Peter speaking. C 1: All right. P: And I have other ideas on maybe making movies, animation, stuff like that. I'm into computer stuff. I do all the design for the paper. C 1: Cool. M: Any other? A: I'm into art and candles and stuff but it'd be difficult to make a career out of that. If I could, that'd be nice. C 1: Yeah, that'd be great. M: Anybody else? Gregg? G: I'm at this point completely undecided. I really enjoy writing and I think if I could be a professional writer that'd be great but I wouldn't wanna count on it. J: I have no clue. G: That's Jacob. C 1: You have time. Leave it open. Thanks a lot. G: Thanks for your call. M: When you're 16, 17, to not have your mind made up about the rest of your life, I think that's right on--hey, thanks for calling in. Really appreciate it. C 1: Okay, bye-bye. M: Okay, it's great to get a call. If there's anyone else out there who'd like to join us in conversation, 443-TALK, 443-8255 are the numbers to call if you're in Columbia. If you have a cell phone a US Cellular cell phone, #NPR or #677'll get you through to us. And I'm Mark Haim, your Tuesday Evening Edition host. I'm here in the studio with Abe Haim and Peter and Gregg and Jacob, all of the Flaming Flag and we're talking about high school activism and politics in general. So we're happy to have this opportunity to hear some more young folks on the air on KOPN, our community station. One question that--oh! We've got another caller coming in. Hang on. Hi. You're on KOPN's Evening Edition. C 2: Hi. I find your program very interesting tonight but as an old guy I'm curious where and I guess from which base of information, knowledge and experience your four guests draw the conclusions on which they have based their perceptions. M: Okay, so similar question to last time. What's your basis for your beliefs? G: Well, first of all, a lot of it I've gotten-- M: Gregg? G: --through my American history book. Actually, it's amazing what you can learn just simply--I mean, some of the things our country's done have been outrageous. It's not all good or all bad, there's a lot of grey. But I think we all agree there should be quite a bit of change in the way things run. M: Gregg, can I interrupt you for one sec? I wanna just mention to the other person who's trying to dial in, because the other phone line is ringing, to keep ringing. I think that the way the phones work here, if there's one call on the line, we will stay on that call but if the person keeps ringing, as soon as we get off one call, we'll take the next call. Okay, so if you're trying out there to ring through and we don't pick up, don't get discouraged. Just let it ring through until we do pick up. Go ahead. G: Well, I was about finished. M: Okay. Jacob? J: I think that, well, I try to read everything I can. And often I make my own connections between things. And sometimes I have connections pointed out that I see. I think that a lot of times, young people are ignored. But often these people are just coming into the world and making their--they're not experienced yet but sometimes experience can be a bad thing because they're not just all caught up in their own prejudices and experience and they see the world kinda fresh. M: Sounds true to me. Anybody else? A: I was brought up in one particular radical tradition but with more of a liberal and reformist one. And I believe in trying to make change more through the system and the government but then right before--right between eighth and ninth grade, I was arrested and that made me really think about the cops and you know, what they're working for and stuff and made me, you know-- M: You were arrested for what? A: Just for being out on the street late at night. I was coming home from a party this, around 4:00 in the morning or so, I got dropped off downtown, I was walking a few blocks from my house and this cop just came and arrested me and took me to this holding cell. I was kept in that room there until they came and picked me up later and I hadn't done anything wrong and you know, I think there's a natural desire for freedom in everybody and for me, I came to the realization that, you know, we can't liberate ourselves and we can't reach any of these goals that we want if we're working through the same repressive system. It's just not gonna work. M: Caller, did you get answers to your questions? C 2: Great, I have just one further comment and I'll hang up and let them respond but I would say that I'm a--there's a lot of us journalists in the Columbia area--I'm one of them, I've been working in professional journalism since I was fourteen, sophomore in high school and have been pretty successful at it, but I've found that working within the system and trying to change the system from within works far better for me than trying to work at it from the outside, so I wish the fellows good luck. M: Thanks so much for calling. WE've got another caller coming in so let me take that call. Hi. You're on KOPN's Evening Edition. C 3: Oh, hi. I-I remember one of you mentioned earlier, like, about homophobia, and was wondering, my sister goes to Rock Bridge and she's gay but I'm not and I was just wondering how you guys feel about that and what kind of stuff you're putting out about that issue. P: Well, I've been brought up to accept people for no matter what kind of conditions they have, if they-- M: This is Peter speaking. P: I mean, some of my relatives are lesbians and lots of people I know have been lesbians, lots of my parents' close friends and there are a lot of gay people I've been friends with, too, and so I've been brought up to accept all people. And I think that in high school, you see a lot of people who don't accept people for the way they are and you see a lot of homophobic remarks made at people, even if they're not gay. And often, people don't know whether they are, they feel that it's bad because of the way they've been brought up. And that's one of the problems that we see in this world and we'd like to see a place where people respect each other for what they are. C 3: All right. It's really hard for my sister and it's hard for me to see her, I mean, sad, so . . . J: I think that people, like, homosexuality is such a-a meaningless word to some people, they don't see it, really, they don't think about it, they just know it's like the enemy, sort of how they were brought up. They really just don't understand any of it or even think about it much, they just know it's wrong. That's what they think. G: It seems to me like a lot of people without any experience with anyone who at least is openly homosexual, just because of the environment they've been raised in, what they've been told, they assume homosexuality to be a bad thing and they just make their own judgments without any knowledge, just ignorance guides them. And I think that's a very wrong thing. And as far as our experience with that in the paper, in one of the issues of the A-Cycle, we actually had an article about homophobia and we interviewed a state senator, I believe, he's still in politics-- P: Ken Jacobs. G: And we interviewed him about a bill that was up at the time about a ban on gay marriages. Ever since then, we've all had pretty strong convictions. Some of us did before but some of us learned from that then. M: Ken, at that point, expressed some pretty homophobic ideas. I remember reading that interview. P: And also made some rather vulgar comments, as well. M: Which you all printed. G: Yeah, course, we did. A: The thing I was gonna mention was that, one of the oldest devices that repressive governments have used in history is the divide and conquer technique, you know, keep people, instead of working together, just always fighting each other and not understanding each other and I think that that's really destructive. C 3: Right. M: I wanna thank you, caller, for calling in. We've got another caller coming in, so thanks for calling and we'll move on to our next call. C 3: Thank you. M: Bye-bye. . . Hi. You're on KOPN's Evening Edition. C 4: I was wanting to ask you guys if, through your newspaper, you've seen an effect in people's lives that have read it, through their views, having their minds opened? P: I have seen some effect, especially on the topic we were just talking about, the homphobia issue. I have seen a lot of people start to realize that their bigoted views were wrong and I've seen a lot of changes made. Also, we made impacts on people with the issues we bring up, say, for Nike's human rights abuses and Shell's human rights abuses. And we've seen a lot of people who will be awakened to what's going on and they will start to support us and they will join us in our movements against corporations such as those. C 4: I was also wondering have you guys been given a hard time? Has there been a lot of oppression because of what you're trying to do? J: I'd say-- A: Yeah, when I first started printing out the Black & Red I was suspended for a week by Joe Paulsen at Hickman and, you know, he had all sorts of excuses for it but basically he didn't want me to be doing anything other than the official school newspaper and giving it out at school. And I'm sure he'll say a whole bunch of other stuff but-- C 4: But it's worth it? G: Definitely, I mean, for that matter, Columbia Public Schools has an official list of guidelines for non-school sponsored papers but they gave us a list of the guidelines and then they countered exactly what the guidelines said, so we've just tried to make it on our own and tried to get around the officials as best we can. M: I take it that not only Abe was suspended for a week but you, Gregg, and you, Peter, each were given the boot for a day or something? G: Yeah. Yeah, we've each had our experiences. A: I tried to contact the ACLU and have them be suing the schools and take them to court but they didn't really seem--for awhile they were interested but then they were afraid they'd lose or something, so I'm not sure-- J: Yeah, it made a fair amount of press. A: Yeah. J: When it happened. A: I think after that the schools were afraid to be at least repressing me, they were kinda afraid to mess with me. M: I wanna thank you for calling. We've got another call coming in so I'm gonna switch over here and I am gonna invite people if you're trying to call in to keep--let it ring. And we'll go to our next caller. Thanks for calling. Hi. You're on KOPN's Evening Edition. C 5: Hi. I would like to ask the gentlemen--quite often they've discussed the term anarchy--I'd just like to ask them what their definition of anarchy is, if it involves no government at all or if it involves somewhat Marxist final analysis. Anyway, I'd just like to get the gentlemen defining anarchy. M: Abe, you wanna start with that; maybe somebody else'll come in, too? A: The way I define that is not a lack of organization but a lack of hierarchical and centralized organization and I think basically, pretty key word to me is that people need to be united and decentralized and also be equal, so everybody's equal in terms of the power that they have and be united in working towards the same goals and there'd be, like, small groups but the small groups will be a part of, you know, bigger federations and networks. But they won't be controlled from one centralized place that will be trying to control and exploit all the other people. M: Any other take on that issue? Peter? P: Well, I define anarchy in a very similar way to what Abe does, however, I don't necessarily support it in our current system as a new alternative because I see it as an ideal society that we should all strive for but I don't see it as a feasible goal within the next couple centuries. I think that we need to make a long transition to this ideal society, which some people would call utopia. We just called it anarchy because that's the word that best defines it and so currently, I've been exploring alternatives to our current system that will bring us closer to our goal within the long run. M: Anybody else? Gregg? G: Well, personally, I would call myself more a communist but if one was to read something like the Communist Manifesto, anarchy, or just simply a lack of government, isn't the eventual goal of communism. And I just define anarchy as a lack of government and hierarchy, with people being equal to one another. And I agree with Peter that it's not a possibility for the near future, certainly not in our country. But for those who say it's not a possibility anywhere, they simply need to look to Spain, earlier in the century. M: Jacob? J: I think anarchy's kind of--if someone calls themselves an anarchist, I think they kind of, it's kind of a thrown-around word, it means a lot of the same things but people have different views of exactly what it means. I'm not sure exactly what I feel. I would use it, like, but I sort of still consider myself an anarchist but not necessarily ideologist. M: Okay, well, you know what? It's about 6:34, coming up on 6:35. Caller, I wanna thank you for your call and we need to take a two minute break for Pulse Of the Planet. I know there's somebody else trying to call in and I apologize. We will take your call right after the break but right now we need to go to Pulse of the Planet and we will be back in two minutes. BREAK     M: Well, you should see these guys dancing here in the studio. I'm Mark Haim back with you all for the remaining minutes of Evening Edition. It's 6:37, I'm here in the studio with Abe and Peter and Gregg and Jacob and, once again, I find myself with a little bit of feedback. I'm not sure why but hopefully it's sounding okay out there. I can't tell, but for some reason tonight I've been getting feedback in my headphones. And if people wanna join us in conversation here, 443-TALK, 443-8255, I know before the break, we had people calling in and we didn't get to take all the calls. The phones have been ringing off the walls and we've got about another 15 minutes with these guys from the Flaming Flag, so, at this point, I guess if nobody is calling in I will go to ask another question which . . . We do have a call coming in. Hang on. And you are on KOPN's Evening Edition. Hello. C 6: Hello. I'd like to direct a question to Peter Gerard. Earlier, he said something about a utopia, how he was searching for one or something like that. Is that right? P: Yes, that's right, Chris. C 6: Well, besides that, I was just wondering what different message would you-- measures would you take? I mean, how could you make it better in your eyes? P: Well, one option that's possible is Marxist Communism that Gregg mentioned earlier. But there are also other options that might be a possibility that would involve a more pure democracy than we have now that would involve other ideas and right now I'm just simply searching for new ideas and when I find one I think would work, I'm probably gonna stick with it. C 6: Okay, that's all I had to ask. Thank you. P: Thank you. M: We appreciate your call and appreciate everybody calling here tonight at 443-TALK, 443-8255. And we will be happy to take calls from other people right up until about 6:53 or 6:54, when we have to go to our progressive community update that happens each Tuesday. Right now it's 6:40, you're listening to KOPN's Evening Edition. And one thing--I know you guys have a website. And I'd like to talk to you about your various ways in which you, you know, communicate with people. Because besides your publication, you have a website. You wanna talk about that a little bit? A: Well, first of all, I wanna respond to what Peter said before. It's just that I'm not a Marxist and that I agree with some of their socialist critiques of capitalism but I'm totally opposed to its authoritarian aspects and especially to the later Marxist regimes that have been established throughout the planet. I think that they are basically end up being state-based capitalism and still run basically like capitalist governments. M: Any other thoughts on that? Gregg? G: Well, I basically stated my viewpoint before, I think. Communism would be more of an ideal thing. I don't--certainly don't disagree with anarchy but that's just my personal view. As far as what you're asking about the web page, we've had several different addresses and people might want to get our present address. P: Our current address is http://thor.prohosting.com/~fflag M: People wanna get your pencils or pens to write that down? Wanna repeat that, Peter? P: It's http://thor.prohosting.com/~fflag J: And our email is f-flag@usa.net P: That's f-flag@usa.net. And we've just recently made a massive update to the web page. We now have issues 1-5 of the Flaming Flag online. And there are a few holes on missing articles that we're working on replacing right now. We're working on putting the newest issue up, as well. And new stuff, too. M: The reason I'm interrupting is we have another call coming in but it looks like the caller might've given up. You can try us again. I'm sorry, I didn't notice the light blinking fast enough. I'm trying to play with the controls here. J: We also have a lot of good things on our page to--all kinds of different groups and organizations and-- G: ????Zapatista home page, as well as other numerous activist groups. M: Okay, we've got another call coming in. Hang on. Hi. You're on KOPN's Evening Edition. Thanks for your patience. C 7: Hi. First of all, I'd like to say that I'm really fascinated by all of your guys' opinions but philosophically, I guess, don't you think it's a little naive to think that righteousness and truth can open peoples' eyes? I mean, like, for one, we all value structure and comfort in our lives and when that value collides with the truth, initially, people are always angry but when they alter their lifestyles and follow what is right, hypocrisy sets in because truth eventually always contradicts our nature, I guess. So, really, what I'm--I guess what I'm trying to say is, generally, based upon my 17 years of experience, when we try to escape from ourselves and follow righteousness, we can't. And that's why there is hypocrisy in all of our lives, in all of our actions. And we cannot avoid hypocrisy, as long as we follow what we feel is right. So, really, we're a damnable species from the beginning, so, I just wanted to say that. M: Sounds a little pessimistic, that would be my take on it. I'll let these guys respond. Abe? A: I think that your view, basically, is the epitome of most peoples' critique of anarchism, which is basically total cynicism. I think that if we don't have hope then you might as well just go out and kill yourself. I mean- J: Not that we're suggesting that. A: Yeah. But I--basically anarchism--I choose anarchism, that's what it's all about, is hope and knowing that people are inherently good and that, you know, if they're brought up to basically believe in morals--and by morals I don't mean, like, you know, the Christian values of fear and stuff but morals of self-determination and respect and love for others -then, I think that humans are inherently good. G: And as far as what Abe was saying about being inherently good--we were just in discussion a few days ago about--if you look at Marxism--if you go get underneath all of his, all of what he says about proletariat and collisions between the classes, Marx belief was that people are inherently good. M: Now we've got another caller coming in. I wanna thank the caller who called in. Do you have a follow on, though? C 7: Well, I don't necessarily think that people are born bad. I'm just saying that as long as we're trying to seek the truth--I mean, what I'm saying is that we should just live in a lifestyle that, you know, I don't know how to, you know, express it--well, I don't really know but I'm just saying that we can't avoid hypocrisy as long as we follow what we feel is right. M: It's a struggle but- right now, we've got another caller coming in, so thank you for calling and we'll go to the next caller. Hi. You're on Evening Edition on KOPN. Hello? J: Not anymore. M: Did you go away? Just at the last minute, you missed us. You're not there? Not there. Okay, try us back. 443-TALK. I really appreciate all these folks calling in tonight and I guess one thing I wanted to ask you all about is, you all put out this journal and I think it's a great thing to express yourselves and get that kind of information and ideas, open forum in front of people. Are there any other kinds of political activities any of you individually are involved in? Or as a group involved in? G: Well, I know several of us are involved in Amnesty International and we support a lot of what they do with human rights, trying to help people who've been imprisoned, prisoners of conscience. M: Are there AI groups at both your high schools? G: Yeah, there are AI chapters at Hickman and Rock Bridge High School. I know there's one at MU, as well. J: Yeah, I think it's one of the few good organizations at our schools. G: I agree. M: Any other involvements, anything you--you do? P: Jacob and I both take classes at Peaceworks, classes at the Peace Nook, and we learn about stuff that has to do with political issues and history. And we also participate in protests and movements, as well as joining groups such as the Fellowship of Reconciliation and other groups we discover on the internet. J: Yeah, I'm in--I get a newsletter and email from the East Timor Action Network, which is a group for independents of East Timor from Indonesia, which has been--East Timor has been under Indonesia's oppression since 1975 when it was invaded. M: Anything else? A: I wasn't so much gonna say anything more about political stuff but don't do much else besides the paper but as I mentioned earlier, I think we mentioned this before but another goal for the paper besides just expressing our own beliefs is to, you know, serve as a forum for freedom of expression for all high school students and other people in the community or even throughout the country and the world, so even if you can send us stuff, we'll put it in the paper, like artwork, poetry, stories or articles that are your opinion or just artistic expression, you know, things like that. M: Now, if people want to get involved, what's the best way to do that? If they wanna give you financial support, what's the best way to do that? Because I know financial support is always helpful when you're trying to do something like this and you mentioned earlier you're about $150 in debt. How would people contact you and how would they get involved? P: We have several ways to be contacted. The easiest and most common way people use is probably the mail and our address is: Flaming Flag, c/o 804C East Broadway, Columbia, Missouri, 65201. Then we can also be reached on the internet at the address I mentioned earlier--http://thor.prohosting.com/~fflag and we have comments box that you can fill in and send or you can send us an email and, if you send us a return address, you'll always get a personal response. And also, you can call Abe at 442-2360-- A: That's area code 573. P: And you can talk to him. And also, we will be at Earth Day on April 18th. It'll be at Peace Park on Saturday, April 18th and you can come and talk to us and we'll be passing out information and talking to people at our booth. So just look for us there, too. J: Why don't you tell them exactly where our booth is? M: Where exactly is your booth? Anybody know? A: I think it's gonna be focused at the corner of 8th Street and Elm Street and I think it's gonna be on the Peace Park side of the street. M: Okay, well, it's 6:49 and you're listening to Evening Edition on KOPN, 89.5, your community radio station. I'm Mark Haim, here in the studio with Abe--oh, wait a second, we've got another caller coming in. Before we miss this one, let me grab it. Hi. You're on Evening Edition. C 8: Yes! I'm calling in reference to some comments made about various forms of government. One of the gentlemen spoke about anarchy and communism and I wanted to weigh in with a comment on--I think that both of these forms are ideal in the sense that they're also very similar to the Jeffersonian pre-Industrial democracy and all three of these have sort of an idealistic sense to them. And I think they all three revolve around the idea that a responsible citizenry is what creates responsible government. And I was wondering if you could speak a few words about that. M: Anybody wanna go with that? We have just a few minutes and we have another caller who I hope will keep ringing, but Gregg? G: Well, so far as responsible citizenry, we think--or at least I think--that the key to that is awareness. And that's a big part of why I'm involved in this paper--to help make people realize what's going on around them and I see your point while in Jeffersonian democracy you would be the agrarian farmer and in communism it's just the regular worker. But I'd agree with that statement and I think that's part of how we all manage even though we don't have the exact same political ideologies. M: Any other comments? A: Yeah. Like, we also talked about how idealist anarchism is? But what I counter with that is that, look at how well capitalism and our supposedly democracy works. You know, you have corruption and you basically have people that are getting rich off of exploiting people and it doesn't really make for anybody to be living a happy or healthy life, so I wouldn't say that capitalism works, either. M: Caller, did that address your concerns? Are you still on the line? Maybe not. I appreciate you calling in. We've got another call coming in. Hi. You might be our last caller on Evening Edition tonight. You're on the air. C 9: Hello. M: Hi. C 9: How are you today? M: I think we're all doing well. C 9: Good. I'm not particularly convinced as to what--what is your agenda? I have read your literature off and on and I know that you guys are supporters of some kind of Marxism/Leninism and I-- A: I'm not. C 9: --and in my opinion the two ideologies are completely different. There may be some similarities here and there. The second thing that I would like your panel to address, or sometime if you have a program like this, perhaps you might pick this up. In the political system--or within the political system of the United States--where you are going to, or all of us are going to be for the rest of our life, what kind of reform--are you aiming at some kind of reform or are you trying to overthrow the presidential or representational system by a Marxist communist system? What are you trying to drive at? Are you trying to train us intellectually? M: We only have about one minute so we need to give them a chance to answer your question. Thank you so much for calling in. C 9: Okay. Am I clear? J,G,P: Yeah. C 9: Okay, go ahead then. Respond. G: Insofar as the Marxist/Leninist comment, I'd like to say that--I'm Gregg--I support Marxism ideologically. I disagree with most everything I've ever heard that Lenin said and I think that the examples of communism that have been attempted in places like Russia or Cuba or China were not at all true to Marx's ideals. And I, personally, at this point, don't plan on overthrowing the government, at least not any time in the near future. What I support is reform. I, personally, have been looking into the Green Party and agree with a lot of what they say. I certainly don't think that Republicans or Democrats have agendas that would help our country. And so far as-- C 9: Quick question. Have you-- M: Wait a second. I think there's some other people who want to respond to this question and we're just about out of time, caller. A: Yeah, like I said before and I'll say it again very clearly. I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Marxist or a Leninist. I'm well aware of the differences between Marxism, Leninism and anarchism and I feel that, especially like in the Spanish Civil War and many other cases, that communist--or if you call Marx/Leninist communists--basically stabbed the anarchists in the back. I'm very opposed to that and I think that people need to be resisting all forms of authoritarianism and I think that working within the system is not effective because you're basically relying on the same repressive authorities to achieve your goals. And in terms of overthrowing the government, I think that the important thing right now is to educate people and to make people take control of their lives and if the government tries to stop them they just need to assert their authority and not try and start a new government by overthrowing the present one. M: I really appreciate the caller calling in and your responses. Right now, we are about at the point where we really need to wrap up. I think it's really interesting, we've gotten through some of these issues this hour. I'd like to, at some point, have you guys back in to talk about some of these issues and concerns. Peter, something last minute? P: Yeah, I'd like to add a short comment. I think that anyone who has called in or hasn't called in, that didn't get to finish talking with us, please go ahead and take the time to contact us both ways I mentioned earlier and we will talk with you personally and we can fully discuss the issues you had concerns about. A: Or write a letter to our paper and we'll respond to it. M: Okay, well, it's 6:55. Thanks so much, Abe, Peter, Gregg and Jacob, for being with us tonight. I am Mark Haim. -Transcribed by Peg Leg's Mom (Thanks a lot!) If you would like a tape of this show or the June show, please contact us.